MILITARY WATCHES GENERAL INFORMATION AND DETECTING THE FAKES
If you want to contact me with comments email: ian.crowley@military-watches.net
CWC (Cabot Watch Company)

CWC (Cabot Watch Company) http://cwcwatch.com/


Cabot Watch Company was founded in 1972 by Ray Mellor but is now owned by Silverman’s see http://www.silvermans.co.uk/ which is a military surplus, camping gear and military equipment dealer based in London, UK. CWC watches are of good sound quality and are supplied to the British Forces. In summary they are fine although rather dated in many ways due to the conservative requirements laid down by the British MOD. This conservatism shows in the fact that the UK still use Perspex in most of their G10 models where other countries have moved to glass for improved durability. In addition the UK forces have not opted for Self Luminous technology which employs vials of active tritium gas. Interestingly CWC claim on their site that Perspex is a requirement in the G10 Specification which is baffling when the Pulsar G10 General Service wristwatch issued to British forces following the 2001 request for tenders used glass just like the current MWC. CWC seem totally fixated with British contracts and can’t seem to see beyond the MOD so I think this is a bit of a minus. Having said that the watches a solid and traditional in the same way as many other manufacturers so its really a question of personal preference.


If you are interested in the UK Ministry of Defence Specification for Military Watches it can be found at
http://www.dstan.mod.uk/data/66/004/04000400.pdf


We have reviewed 5 CWC watches one review is below but all were fine. The SBS watch we tested seemed very solid and had a very good bezel action.

TEST OF THE CWC MECHANICAL CHRONOGRAPH

I last tested one of these in July last year. I sold that watch in December but wished I hadn't so I got another one and this test was carried out in January 2008 is of the mechanical non dated CWC chronograph. Silverman’s product code is 64080 see http://www.silvermans.co.uk/cwc/shop/watches.htm the watch was originally produced as a pilot's chronograph for the British Royal Air Force.

General Description:  The case is stainless steel, screw back and has a matt finish with an acrylic crystal, usual time functions, 30 min counter at 12, continuous sec at 9, standard start/stop pushers with flyback function when the pusher at 4 is activated. The winder is nicely finished and recessed.  

Dimensions: Width 40mm, Thickness 13mm, Lug to Lug 46mm

Movement: Valjoux 7765

Accuracy during test:  Excellent during the 3 week test period at a consistent +3 sec/day

Strap/options:
Mine came with a grey NATO strap which is the most historically accurate but the US pattern strap in Khaki or Black looks good but is slightly small (three quarter inch) which is around 19mm although the lug size is 20mm

Conclusion:  This watch is a nice piece of kit. I can’t say I am overly enthused by Silverman's who are the owners of CWC but the watches are often a good buy. This watch is not badly priced in my opinion at GBP399, Silverman’s make a dated version too for GBP26 more but my feeling is this model looks much purer. I bought this one for GBP325 and it was a few months old. I probably overpaid a bit but I liked it and after testing it thoroughly I recommend this watch for anyone whose into military timepieces or just wants a nice chronograph that does the job.

Tested March 06: CWC British Army current issue G10 quartz watch

Conclusion: Built like a tank and very robust. In some ways it fees less solid than the models we have seen from the 1980s and 1990’s some of which still surface in unissued condition and even more bizarrely you can get one via their arch competitor MWC! It has to be said that with thousands issued it is a tried and tested bit of kit. The new 2000 model however does not seem as substantial as the older battery hatch model.


This picture shows a battery hatch CWC G10 with the famous SBS Divers watch


 

Where to get one:


CWC Watches:
New from the manufacturer at £79.99


CWC G10: 
Brand New CWC's are often available at a discount from a rather odd source, namely MWC who apparently source them from their British Army Contacts. Although cheaper than buying from CWC direct MWC will not ship them to some countries unfortuna tely the UK is among them although this sometimes changes because they were selling them last year on their site.



Anchor Supplies
Used but serviced a good buy at £49.95 probably seen action!


CWC Alternatives:


Pulsar G10

The Pulsar G10 was made for the British army fairly recently and is an interesting alternative to the CWC although it was alleged to have quality control issues with poor mineral crystals and crowns prone to falling off.  Its life was therefore fairly limited, with the CWC winning back favour. We have tested the Pulsar and found it to be fine. In fact I own one and regularly use it without any sign of problems it has a pleasing streamlined case design. In our opinion if you can find one it is probably going to be fine. Expect to pay €75 / £50 / US$90 or more for a clean issued example.


MWC G10 BH

The MWC is similar to the CWC but often has a unique bezel design although they are sometimes made with a plain bezel as well. The MWC is heavier than the CWC model. It uses glass as opposed to Perspex and seems to have been extensively redesigned in 2005 (could MWC be tendering for the next MOD contract?). We tested the MWC and found that in reality it is very similar to the CWC although all of the Stainless Steel MWC G10s retain the battery hatch. In addition MWC offer a range of case finishes and face designs plus a self luminous model. As far as price goes you could compare a standard MWC G10 Battery Hatch to the CWC 2000 at £99.99 (€140 or US$180) so it is just over £30 cheaper at £69.95 (€98 or US$125) although for around £20 more than the CWC you could have an MWC Self Luminous G10. Hard Choice but I think I would swing toward the MWC as I prefer glass to Perspex and the battery hatch saves hassle not only that but the Self Luminous option is very tempting.



For an independant assessment of the MWC G10BH models see this link to a report commissioned by Telford Services who are a large authorised MWC dealer in the UK see Discount Chronographs


MWC Independant G10 Report from a member of the British Horological Institute


Secondhand: Some MWC watches float around which are surplus or contract overruns. Expect to pay €55 or £39 or US$68 for a tidy used MWC.

 

Where to get a new one:

Direct from the manufacturers MWC is the factory site or two leading UK Resellers Antenbach Tactico or Telford Services / Discount Chronographs

If you have any used or new CWC or other military watches I can recommend a number of dealers who are keen to buy them. Contact me at ian.crowley@military-watches.net and I will but you in touch.

If you suspect a CWC is fake contact CWC via Silverman’s on 020 7790 0900 or from outside the UK on +44 2077 900 900

 

I am aware from what I have been told that CWC can often mislead people when they call. An exmple is on their website where it says “Counterfeit brands make claims that the acrylic glass that CWC watches use is inferior, but this remains a government requirement for issue watches. Watches with other types of glass are not genuine and are not superior.” This is at best confusing when your consider that the Pulsar G10 used by the British Forces used glass!


CWC at the moment seem to be in a position of desperately trying to protect their declining market share. This is what is says on the CWC website. Doesn't it have an air of desperation? They also agreed with MWR to post a section which on the basis of the contents should be called "
[BEWARE OF CWC] There is something VERY sinister going on in the milwatch world..." this posting contains loads of highly confusing information. You will find if you phone CWC and make references to Nite or Pulsar MOD contracts or Seiko chronograph contracts they will deny Seiko have any! Try phoning them with a few awkward questions and see how they will confuse the issues.


These are the facts regardless of what CWC might tell you. The general story we are told is that if asked they will say that the MOD only bought a small quantity of Seiko's. To be certain of the true position it was confirmed with Seiko that the first RAF-issued Seiko chronograph ( Gen. 1 ) was procured from Seiko UK and issued primarily to Royal Air Force pilots and navigators beginning in the mid 1980's. According Seiko, 11,307 pieces of this Gen. 1 model were supplied by Seiko to the British Armed Forces.The NSN for this watch is 6645-99-768-3056 The Seiko reference number is: Seiko ref # SPR047. The MoD standard which was allocated for this contract awarded to Seiko was Def Stan 66-4(part4)/Issue 4. These MKI Seiko's are now among the most sought after military watches made in the last 25 years and regularly make GBP500 / USD1000 or more when they are offered for sale and are in mint condition. The MKII version, the NATO Stock number or NSN number for this watch is 6645-99-814-9181, the MKII is much less sought after and significantly cheaper if you find one for sale. See Pictures


Where all this becomes interesting is that it is not disputed that Seiko Corporation began supplying the British Forces with wristwatches in the mid 1980’s and they continue to do so today. As far as I know there have been three (there might be a fourth based on recent insider info) issued Seiko chronographs, this excludes the matter of the rare Yellow Face Vulcan Bomber Chronograph ($3000 if you can find one) and the Pulsar G10 general service wristwatch which is also becoming highly sought after. The story behind the Pulsar is that in 2001/2002, the MOD invited tenders to replace the CWC as the general service timepiece used by the MOD, the reason for this is not clear and I don't expect CWC will be keen to enlighten us! The crucial thing is that Pulsar was successful in beating CWC and securing the contract and supplied a quartz wristwatch with the standard UK/MOD requisite fixed bars and a Seiko 7N32C calibre movement, Luminova was used on black dial and a date window appeared at 15.00. We are informed that the Pulsar G10's were recently issued in Iraq so it suggests many are still current  MOD  issue.

The NSN for that watch is 6645-99-6052627.


What is of interest is that we confirmed that Nite watches models MX10 and MX20 are curently being issued to UK Special Forces. The MX10 watch is an incredibly tough high specification NATO issued military watch which has many outstanding features. These include, Swiss movement, gun metal stainless steel case, polymer strap with double locking clasp, screw in pin bars, sapphire glass c/w triple anti-reflective coating, four year battery and triple O-rings, giving water resistance to 330ft. These specifications combined with the failsafe illumination system is why the MX10-001 is one of the models issued as standard to many Special Forces regiments. The MX10 is a direct competitor to the MWC G10SL MKV


What all this confirms is that clearly CWC whilst at one time the Number 1 MOD supplier are now just one among many. If you have spoken to CWC let us know how they pitch the story to you.


Coming pack to the issue of domains etc. The most interesting thing is the site with all the nonesense about the domains and MWC/CWC says the following:


"Yes, what you are missing is that this is a very recent change to the redirect. Up until about 24 hours ago, cwcwatches.com redirected you to http://www.military-watches.net/ . Now, clicking on cwcwatches.com takes you to the CWC site. I believe this is in reaction to the heat generated by this discussion. For what it's worth, the actual site for CWC is CWCWATCH.COM, not CWCWATCH(ES).COM. Cabot lays no claim to the domain, "CWCWATCHES" which was apparently registered by some other party."

Now this is where it get's weird! If you email sales@cwcwatches.com CWC will reply to the email! Odd that don't you think? It is a huge effort to fudge the issue in my mind.

 

This is what it says on the CWC website

"CWC are one of the main suppliers of genuine British military watches and are awarded contracts based on quality, reliability and durability. However there are many unscrupulous companies who are passing off other brands as genuine military issue, passing off old CWC stock for new unissued watches, or selling copies. This help guide will make sure you only buy genuine brand new CWC watches.


Imitations and copies.

Cabot Watch Company is ISO 9000:2001 registered, which is a quality assurance required of all suppliers to H.M. government. Any company without this cannot supply watches to the government. Our Comment: Here they refer to the UK government and seem blinkered to the other contracts which exist around the world. Most suppliers such has Marathon do not even tender for UK contracts as far as we know.

Counterfeit brands make claims that the acrylic glass that CWC G10 and GS 2000 watches use is inferior, but this remains a government requirement. G10 and GS 2000 watches with other types of glass are not genuine and are not superior. All CWC divers watches use mineral glass as specified by the MOD. Our Comment:  How come the Pulsar used glass and was issued to the MOD. This point does not stand up.

Counterfeit brands make claims that the 'C' on the back of the GS 2000 is for 'civilian' when it actually denotes 'Cabot' and is issued. Our Comment: Could be true but I have seen no claims by any brand on this point.

Counterfeit brands make claims that the battery hatch has been discarded by CWC. The battery hatch is a requirement by the MOD for the CWC General Service G10; it was not specified by the RAF for the GS 2000. To state that CWC have dropped the battery hatch is incorrect as we still make thousands of these watches with the battery hatch for the government. Our Comment: Quite Possibly but only the old undated version.

Counterfeit brands claim their watches are genuine issue. The distinct lack of ex-military surplus watches of other brands is an obvious sign that they are not genuine. Our Comment: There are lots of Marathon, Pulsar, MWC and MB Microtec models sold as surplus and contract overuns on military surplus sites and even eBay at knock down prices.

Counterfeit brands will do everything to confuse and mislead, including biased reviews and links. They will use fictitious overseas contact details and can only be reached by e-mail. CWC supply only from the UK and can be contacted at any time. Our Comment:  What links, what reviews? Who can be reached only by email? I phoned Marathon in Canada (I own three Marathon they are streets ahead of CWC) on +1 905 764 9420
Fake CWC watches can be identified by their inferior build quality. This one, for example, has a winder that is not flush with the watch due to being too large to fit into the gap:" Our Comment: On this point I agree entirely. Having purchased a fake CWC G10 in London a few months ago I found the quality to be pretty grim although at first glance it fooled me and exactly as CWC claim it did not line up in the battery hatch so on this point hats off to them because they are giving the facts exactly as they are. I only paid £15.00 for the fake so I kept the watch but went back to the stall the following week and bought a few as presents, in all honesty they are not bad really and I have given them away and they are still working; hardly the point though I suppose. I was told that the watches are distributed by a guy who has them made in China and has a grudge with MWC although quite how this works is beyond me. The dealer said that this guy told him he even had a laugh phoning CWC and winding them up that MWC was making fake CWC's! Whether it is true who knows but it has an interesting ring to it so I phoned MWC myself and they said they were aware of the story but had no proof although evidence tended to point to this character called Martin and they had his name, address and details. Maybe CWC know something but if its true its certainly pretty outrageous. Does anyone know anything more if so email me ian.crowley@military-watches.net

 

 UPDATE DECEMBER 2007

There is an interesting posting on a forum which has been copied below. The weird thing is that www.cwcwatches.com does not point to www.military-watches.net it goes to CWC even more bizarre if you email sales@cwcwatches.com you get a reply from Silverman’s / CWC so this is clearly a malicious posting intended to confuse and cause damage. Most interestingly we are not even critical of CWC on this site and give test results on watches exacttly as we find them. In the case of CWC the reports are generally positive so what their problem is is beyond us. You will note below it says that what we said on our site is “Both Companies are registered by Silverman’s but this is incorrect what we actually said appears below which purely relates to a domain and can be confirmed.

 

“MWC watches are solidly built and I have tested 5 of them. I have found them to perform extremely well and they are competitively priced. In many ways MWC is a direct competitor to CWC and the companies claim to hate each other. Oddly I discovered that if you do a whois search on www.mwcwatch.co.uk it is Registered to Silvermans who own CWC! This is totally baffling and must indicate a tangable connection although I have no idea what it is.

 

Oddly the person who posted the posting below says “it looks to me that all THREE sites are owned by the same people or at very least in cahoots,” well this makes little sense in light of the points raised above. The other issue is that www.mwcwatch.co.uk registered to Silverman’s does not go to the MWC site it goes to a page that says Registered by 123-reg www.cwcwatches.com which they allege belongs to MWC does route you to the CWC site – I rest my case!

 

Below is the posting from a forum which was intended to confuse.

 

12-15-2007, 19:22   #17

SilverBullet

Member


Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 34

It gets even more sinister Bob!


Stay with me, this gets a little complex.


Starting from the www.mwcwatches.com site, the front page instructs you to go to www.military-watches.net to learn about fake watches as has been pointed out already, then once there their section about MWC says that both companies (MWC & CWC) are registered by Silverman's and the claim is made that there is some connection but they don't know what it is. Then, if you go to http://cwcwatches.com/ it actually redirects you to... you guessed it... www.military-watches.net (not mwcwatches)!!! it looks to me that all THREE sites are owned by the same people or at very least in cahoots, and the dubious claim of a Silverman's association is intentionally there to further legitimize their brand.



I do hope Silverman's knows of this, they have grounds for a lawsuit for certain against these sheisters.



The mystery (ie: deceit) only gets deeper!


Last edited by SilverBullet : 12-15-2007 at 19:25. Reason: Added info

 

You will note that Silverman’s / CWC also aggressively target resellers of used CWC watches when in fact many supply excellent reconditioned watches at a keen price for example http://www.anchorsupplies.com/g10watch_offer.htm

What Silvermans / CWC say on their site is:

“Old stock. Beware of any old stock being passed off as new unissued CWCs, as these are nearly 18 years old and not current issue. The dials are faded and the cases show signs of being stored incorrectly for many years. The only way to obtain a brand new CWC watch is to buy from Silvermans ltd., as they are the sole retailer.
Any surplus military CWC watch can have its age identified by the last two numbers at the bottom, which refer to the date of manufacture. The watch below is from 1989, so it is not brand new and certainly not current issue.”

This just does not wash! See this link on eBay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CWC-G10-QUARTZ-EX-MILITARY-WATCH_W0QQitemZ330198545689QQihZ014QQcategoryZ588QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118 there are numerous CWC bargains on eBay and many are clean and tidy – I should know I love the watches and buy them as gifts for friends. Its Silverman’s I can’t stand especially when we post positive reviews on their watches and we find they incite critical remarks in league with various forums. Fortunately we have not found a bad CWC but what would they say if we did?